Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 14:50:42 GMT
Really now... what makes a great race? Way back when GTA V first came out... we all played the game.. and then finishing it.. (I did) (with another name) and immediately went 'online' like most did. We've seen races of all sorts.. some great at first but in time they die off. Oh? I don't know.. something like Jumps Jumps Jumps.. or Jump or Die. But after a time.. the novelty wears off.. and the race(s) start to seem lacking. Other races, perhaps 'nice'~ seemed to have lasted. Nurenburging.. is still a great race. Many races seem at first .. NOT to be liked.. and get mixed reviews~ But is that what makes the Race a 'lasting one' .. one that still provides enjoyment to race over and over? 4 Way Madness is still a favorite of mine.. and would invite others to try it out on a 3 race Tourney over and over. Muscle, Sport and Super. But now.. after some time, we've all managed to get a good 'idea' of a Great race. We know what we like and what WE definately DO NOT like. I might add.. some of those things we don't like about a race.. well thats probably the very thing that makes the race great. I'd truly like to know what you like.. and with minor pro's and con's of what you don't like. For instance, I truly hate 'Bounties' and feel it ruins the game. But How would online GTA V be without 'bounties' ?
In short I shall describe my "Morning Races" Not too long ago.. there is a morning race from some friend.. who continuously did basically a ' Long Haul' type of race. We all know that type.. some are fun.. others quite boring. It didn't have any 'balance' of curves verses straights.. and the Adder won 99 percent of the time. I finally wrote to him.. and begged him to change the race from Super to Muscle.. stating that most Muscle cars can not take those curves at high speed and it would be a great race for any other type of car. He wouldn't change.. he always did Super~ Is it 'balance' of curves verses straights? The type of cars in the race? Those very obstacles we hate in a race.. the 'blind curve' that cheesey jump.. are those the very qualitites that make a race.. a Great Race.. and 'lasting'? I personally like a free flowing race... one with 'continuity'.. well when I get up in the morning anyways. Something pleasant.. something with smooth turns and curves.. more like a Slalom race (skiing) with very little 'blind curves' or surprises. Something open and with background and foreground. I hate to be enclosed in some tunnel race. When I say smooth and with continuity.. you get into a rhythm that ..and 'taking turns' is fun... that type of race leaves you feeling good and "Well .. that was fun~" .. as opposed being drained after the race.. with mental fatique setting in. That is not to say.. I don't like a 'mental grind' on / in races.. some are quite refreshing.. and a good 'let off steam'.. kinda of grind. Speaking of such matters.. I like to take curves AT HIgh Speeds.. with microns of rubber barely touching the pavement.. one slip up.. and well 'catuch up time' I like to actually 'downshift' by tapping my brakes.. and listening to the pop in the exhaust and hear the transmission wind-down.. and the car hugs the curve. My favorite race Creation .. is called Early In The Morning .. a fun race.. 1 Blind Curve .. 1 Modest curve.. and many High Speed curves, and 1 'surprise' .. (you can take the route .. or take the jump) kind of a Hail Mary if you take the jump... if you make it .. you've got the lead. 2 laps .. high speed. I wish I knew how to give you the link to Early In the Morning .. but I'm sure we'll get a stab at it.. lol. But I'd truly love to hear some input on What Makes a Great Race.. a lasting one.. such as Nurenburging.. and others~ I thank you for your time.. lol.. Jeanne
|
|
|
Post by SPEEDSTER0595 on Jul 23, 2014 16:05:13 GMT
I honestly love tracks with long straights and high speed turns. Maybe its because I love NASCAR. Thats the reason i used to play Long Haul for days until i joined Red Rum.
But i dont think tracks make a good race, but the settings you choose. Dont get me wrong races like Jumps Jumps Jumps dont make good races. Stock cars and single make races are the best as they bring out drivers skill. Custom car races seem based on how much money and upgrades the player has.
Anyways on topic, its difficult to find good races. Sometimes a track will have everything you specify as a great track, but seem boring. Sometimes a track may have nothing like that and it would be a great race.
Great races, i dont think, have a specific criteria they need to meet. The racers make a good race. Racing a track on your own, with contact and without contact are totally different environments. Each one is unique and may bring its own levels of "great racing" with it.
To sum it up, a great race boils down to a good combination of a clean track, talented racers and good cars.
|
|
|
Post by LuapYllier on Jul 23, 2014 16:22:35 GMT
I think you nailed it for me. Ebb and flow.
I don't want a straight boring waterfall or a craggly rock infested rapids, i prefer a fast moving but consistently flowing stream.
|
|
|
Post by coach_wargo on Jul 23, 2014 19:21:16 GMT
What makes a good race? That’s an excellent question, and it’s really two questions in one because a good track and a good race aren’t necessarily the same thing. First and foremost for me a good race must have contact on. The thrill of a race is in overtaking, and driving through someone’s ghost is not overtaking. Needing to pick my spots to pass, maybe going offline or forcing another driver to go offline so that I can pass, those are the things that make a race fun. A little bit of rubbing is ok too, as long as it’s not overly aggressive with an intent to wreck someone. To be able to battle back and forth with someone knowing that the fight will stay clean, that’s what makes a good race for me. What makes a good track? To me different tracks do different things. Some tracks are made for great racing. These kinds of tracks are wide enough to provide overtaking opportunities. I like a nice combination of flat out high speed turns and low speed turns that provide a chance to pass someone under braking. Timing of braking and acceleration are the two aspects that I feel separate the good drivers from the average. One of the strangest comments I ever heard about one of my tracks is when someone said, “I didn’t like it because as soon as I felt like I was going flat out I had to slow down again.” That made me chuckle because it’s exactly the way I designed the race to be run. Other tracks are fun because they test your skill, and they don’t even need to be high speed to be a test. Swedish Folk Race comes to mind as a fun little romp in slow cars. There’s very little room to pass, so you do need to bump a little. But the speeds are low enough that you won’t knock someone wildly off track. I went into that race expecting to be disappointed and wound up grinning ear to ear. A track doesn’t even need to be that long for it to be fun. A few of us have been creating super short tracks the bare minimum allowed by R*, 0.62 miles. It’s amazing how much can be done in a short lap. Two of my favorites there are O’Neil Bone Race, and deejay’s Palmer 8 DD (you haven’t lived until you’ve done a four wheel drift with a Sandking). I like your slalom analogy too. Basically and track run through mountains in the middle of the map fits that category. They’re challenging enough to be better than the straight highway races without being mentally taxing. Plus the views are stunning, if you slow down long enough to appreciate them. I love bike races, but I hate alleyways and narrow confined tracks. I liked most of the races from the 0.62 mile playlist, but I hated Pillbox Hill Moto GP. I thought it was just a ball of frustration. 40 second laps for the fast guys, at least 4 deaths a lap for me. I feel like I can never get a rhythm on tracks like that and it irritates the crap out of me. tl:dr Good races = Contact on, a track with enough room to overtake and a combination of high speed and low speed sections.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 9:47:41 GMT
Just want to point out at the start here that I don't think Nurnburgring is a great race. I think alot of the checkpoints and the prop usage in it is horrible, the layout is ok.
As for great races, I don't really think there are that many yet. I try to make my races great, but I know most of them are not yet, that's why I'm constantly working on them trying to improve them.
In my opinion a great race is a mixture of many things. First of all there is the technical, creative aspects. Checkpoints should be excellent, and prop work should be where it's needed, it should be thorough and detailed. It should look as natural as possible, and it should be an aid for the driver. (Not a physical aid, but a visual aid) Alot of creators put their propwork (I have done this myself) way up in the drivers nose, trying to physically guide them through turns and narrow parts. Considering most of us find the best racing experience with clean drivers and contact turned on that's usually a recipe for disaster. I makes for very congested turns, where normally a person would crash and then be out of the way for everyone behind they get thrown right back in the middle of the road.
I think a great race doesn't have a recipe in terms of technicality or whether or not it has jumps, etc... The key is that it is flawless, and flaws you can find should be flaws with the game, not the race. Me and Luap have lately had a few discussions on CP placements in turns which relates to that particular subject, where we very strongly disagree. My personal opinion being that checkpoints should generally be placed wide in the turn, where the edge of where you can hit it(not the corona), should never reach any R* created sidewalk props, and ideally reach just slightly over the curb. Luap however thinks the corona should hit the curb, and allow for shortcuts. My argument is that wherever possible, the creator is responsible for placing checkpoints in a manner that punishes those who knock down debris such as lightpoles and signs. This is just an example of how different our opinions can be.
So in my opinion a great race is a race where minimal debris is knocked down, I don't mind the occasional shortcut but those should be exceptions and not rule. To me variation is much of what makes up a great race. I like long high speed straights with leaning curves, tight narrow parts and long straights leading up to tough turns. I think the driver and the car should be tested in a balanced skillset. The execution is very important though, a great race should be able to communicate all of these different parts to the racer in a manner where the racer is never in doubt of where to go, and where the responsibility for the performance is only on the racer. (A blind corner would be the racers responsibility, you would go full speed through a blind corner in a car in real life, you would make sure you had low enough speed to maintain visibility). I believe this is very difficult to do in GTA Online, and I also think most of the truly great races get slaughtered by the masses for the simple reason that the performance responsibility is on the driver, and people don't like to have that responsibility, because most gamers aren't really racers, they are just gamers.
I also think a great race maintains a good balance on how long and the amount of difficult sections that are in the race, going too long on leaning curves and long straights gets boring. Going through narrow alleys for too long parts will easily make it frustrating, especially if it's physically too tight to pass. There is no recipe though, and as long as there is a clear communication between the racer and the creator throughout the race I think there's every possibility for most races to become great.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 13:19:25 GMT
Number of Players. Two days ago we raced that Dirt oval track... in the RAIN> Now who would have ever thought that adding rain would give that 'controlled drift' we all like to try and demonstrate. But more importantly.. I said.."imagine this race with 16 racers" Maximum number of players.. is got to be one of the TOP 3 .. of most important. A good 'Starting Point' Nurenburging has a lousey 'Start' .. all piled into one tight turn at the start of the race. I also believe / understand to get the type of car..(super/sports) the race had to start there. Starting points should be .. well a Clean Start..with racers 'positioning' themselves in / on / about the various swarms and bumps taking place ...allowing the bunch to thin out before the first turn. Check points.. Do the checkpoints allow for the 'first time' racer. Or am I to drive right past the turn because I dont' know the track. At times.. I believe the checkpoint should be placed in such a fashion the 'first time driver' has some idea of the next checkpoint... as well as perhaps placing it at the 'apex' of the curve to help the newb...lol...well just my opinion. Aside from 'Tunnel Vision'.. my biggest complaint is not wide enough room for passing... therefore in narrow races there seems to be a need for 'Non Contact' but in short.. 'Passing lanes' Two days ago in a race I think I heard Cuz05 state that Custom verses Non Custom cars are two totally different races.. which is true.. and gives the newb or first timmer equal ground...aside from other aspects.. skill perhaps. Three days ago.. I raced a simple track.. called Drag Race. I enjoyed that.. over and over. MBluff and I raced it over and over.. racing various types against another. Number of Racers A Good Starting Point Placement of Check Points Passing Lanes One other I have not mentioned.. mainly because I do not care for 'slipstream' ... I feel it causes moreheadache than anything else... but what I do like.. A Good Finish Line~`.. ```````nothing better than have the ending of race with a nice straight..with 'slip stream' in action.. at its finest. There you are.. in 2nd place.. you've had opportunities to pass..but holding off.. the Finish Line is coming up.. you see the slipstream forming.. you catch it.. zipp past ..into First Place for a win.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 16:58:19 GMT
I disagree with early turns necessarily being a game killer.
The Monte Carlo grandprix circuit starts off with a pretty early 90 degree right turn, and that is one of the most popular real life race tracks. It's important for that first turn to be spacious enough to allow atleast 2-3 drivers in the width though. That being said, the participants in a race in GTA have alot to say as well, simply because too many players play dirty. Whether it's a long straight or an early turn, dirty racing will ruin a starting grid. A long open straight will often have the opposite effect where the field DOESN'T thin out before more technical and narrow parts, an early turn will have a much better effect for thinning out the field.
Knowing a race will always be a requirement for top performance, you need to know where on the track it's most advantageous to do an overtake. And that wont always be on the last straight, in fact I find that changes seldom happen on the last straight, they're more likely to happen in the last 3-4 turns.
|
|
|
Post by Cuz05 on Jul 24, 2014 22:36:36 GMT
Good thread, great posts. Personally I like a variety, I get bored doing the same types of races all the time, which is what makes this such a great racing game imo. Sure the physics aren't spot on, there's a large arcade element to it all but I'm not really into true hardcore racing games. I like em but they don't hold me. With the creator we get to do so many different things and that's what keeps me coming back online as often as I do. I really do like <2min lap street races with a strong combination of varying corners. That would my favourite type of track but if that was all there was I may have moved on by now. A good race for me, pretty much as has been said and summed up nicely by Luap- ebb and flow. This isn't something I've managed to work out a formula for. I try tons of tracks some just hit the mark and some don't. When I'm building a race I always look at the map for interesting corners. Sandy Shores was a really hard place to make a great street race because it's 90% right angles. If you're gonna get a good race down, with an ebb and flow to it, it's got to have variety in the turns imo. Some very fast, some very slow and some in between. If that mixture isn't there then my attention isn't being held from the start of a lap to the end. After that you're looking for some straightaways to break up the rhythm of the turns. Then it all needs to fit together nicely, with the various sections being the right sort of length for drivers to appreciate without feeling ground down by them. Obviously all the technical aspects need to be right, CPs, props, no rotten obstacles etc, goes almost without saying. I do have a thing for technically challenging races but I don't think that sort of thing is ever gonna get everyone liking it. A really great race needs to have a balance, not too simple, not too hard. People will accept a difficult corner on lap 1 but if they're still struggling with it at lap 3 then it's gonna be a race breaker for a lot of people. On the subject of early turns, both sides of that coin have a point. Avoiding a tight 1st turn early in the race is quite high in my priorities but a turn like Fachuro says, wide and easy enough to fit the grid, helps to sort the field out for later, harder turns. In my experience, it takes a very special group of people to avoid at least one crash when you've got a challenge soon after the GO. Race with a few aggressive drivers in there and half the field will be wiped out by it. Passing lanes. I don't like to have a race where it's ALL narrow. I tested one on GTAF a while ago where the entire course was in the Vinewood Hills, all those 2 lane roads around Madrazos/Franklins. I hated it, the roads are fun enough but there was literally nowhere to overtake if someone didn't crash (and the CPs were abysmal). On the other hand, I'm happy for the majority of a race to be tight. If I have to stalk the car in front and wait 2/3 of a lap for an opportunity to pass, it makes for a very tense and satisfying battle. Especially if you don't make it the 1st time and have to pull in and resume the hunt. Which references Coach's point about a great race rather than a great track and Speeds about settings. Slipstream is a bloody nightmare but I do miss aspects of it, like Early says. Start/finish placement can make quite an impression even without. Something 'grandstand' where you just get that feeling of completion when you cross the line, rather than just randomly placed. It's not something I go to great effort with but sometimes I get a placement on the route I've chosen that really gives me a smile. It's always nice to cross the line at some speed so straights into and out of the grid are pretty much what I always look for. Going back to variety, there's those races that just surprise you. Whether that's a crazy feature in the race, an original and unusual road/route choice or just a combination of settings. There's no accounting for those. TL:DR- Good race = GO, throttle, brake, throttle, ease off, THROTTLE, ease off, cruise, brake, ease on, brake, BRAKE, ease on, throttle, THROTTLE, brake, ease on, THROTTLE, finish. Bad race = GO, THROTTLE...........BRAKE......THROTTLE........brake, THROTTLE, finish. Something like that. Throttle seems like a stupid word now but accelerator is too long... Hmm, coulda used GAS but I am British
|
|
|
Post by SPEEDSTER0595 on Nov 21, 2014 4:54:01 GMT
TL:DR- Good race = GO, throttle, brake, throttle, ease off, THROTTLE, ease off, cruise, brake, ease on, brake, BRAKE, ease on, throttle, THROTTLE, brake, ease on, THROTTLE, finish. I wonder if anyone could create a track just using those words lol
|
|