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Post by Cuz05 on Jul 13, 2014 17:35:29 GMT
Firstly, full credit to Swifty for this frankly awesome idea.
I'd been putting tyre stacks in front of troublesome posts for a while when we ran one of Swiftys tracks and saw he had wrapped tyre stacks around the lamppost!!!. Obvious revelatory moment, sun shining through clouds etc. etc.
Was doing this today and found a slight labour saver.
So. Switch to vehicle, smash down the post, place the stack on the posts base. Previously I'd been fiddling around placing the stack in car view as the post would often respawn when I switched to overhead view. It's really bloody awkward. Today tho, I started parking my car on the base after smashing it down, then switching to overhead cam. In all but one case, the post did not respawn and I could quite easily place the stack squarely on its base.
The benefits of doing this is that it really does punish people for hitting them. It doesn't make posts invulnerable but it will make them a lot more resistant and massively discourages running into them. And its much neater.
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Post by deejayb1874 on Jul 13, 2014 20:00:56 GMT
Fantastic! Swifty told me there was a method, never actually told me the method lol.
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Post by SPEEDSTER0595 on Jul 13, 2014 20:01:27 GMT
theres a reason why you and swity are the best creators, this is amazing But would this work with other movable/dynamic free roam props? dumpsters and fences?
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Post by Cuz05 on Jul 13, 2014 21:59:59 GMT
theres a reason why you and swity are the best creators, this is amazing But would this work with other movable/dynamic free roam props? dumpsters and fences? lol, don't credit me, I learned all I know from these guys.... Slowly, haha!
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Post by Cuz05 on Jul 13, 2014 22:03:12 GMT
I don't think it would work with other R* furnishings, they still spawn where they should, just through what you put there. Does make me wonder if you could move that rock on the dirt track in Paleto Bay, stick a sign through it to make it more visible.
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Post by Davexen on Jul 14, 2014 2:09:06 GMT
Jesus Cuz, you're ruining everything. My whole strategy is getting ahead on the first corner and then dropping every lamp post along the way on the road to fuck up the competition. I might have to resort to actual driving now. Lol jk, awesome find by Swifty though. Should make things a lot easier if you happen to be at the back of the pack and don't have to deal with lamp posts on the road on every corner now.
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Post by SPEEDSTER0595 on Jul 15, 2014 16:40:12 GMT
lol i tried it last night tried to place a bus and pylon over lamp post, lamp post still spawned, have yet to try it with dumspters and fences :/
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Post by nittydon on Jul 15, 2014 17:21:30 GMT
Just use the old box switch to cabin, you can encase 2 or 3 posts at a time then, and it makes the posts invincible as you can't get to them ........ doesn't look as sophisticated though !
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Post by SPEEDSTER0595 on Jul 15, 2014 19:08:26 GMT
Hahaha don, protecting the posts at all costs is not ideal for racing, just wished they wouldnt bloody respawn lol
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 20:50:31 GMT
While I see your point with doing this, I also imagine alot more havoc on the rest of the racers as we wont just be dealing with the post but also the tirestack being knocked down. The way I've found that significantly reduces the amount of debris, is whenever the road is wide enough to allow it, place the checkpoint so the corona is about 1 car width out from the curb. In most cases where people hit the lightpost then, they wont get the checkpoints. You can still hit it if your wheel is slightly onto the curb, so it doesn't really cause any issues for the track. It also means a wider variety of lines through the turn will be available, as the checkpoint covers a bigger portion of the road.
Finding the apex of the turn becomes a little more cumbersome, but with a little trial and error you quickly start getting the hang of it. It's also good for consistency, as it keeps the race on the road, instead of laying all the fastest lines weaving in and out of trees, posts, etc... on the sidewalks.
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Post by LuapYllier on Jul 25, 2014 22:44:37 GMT
The average racer aims toward the middle of a checkpoint not the very tippy edge...therefore your placement would force all the drivers not knowing the purpose of your placement into wildly off line paths that ruin the corners.
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Post by Cuz05 on Jul 26, 2014 1:11:09 GMT
It does REALLY discourage people from hitting them tho, that means the lamppost rarely gets hit so overall the disruption is reduced by quite a bit. In my experience with them I can't actually remember seeing the sort of thing you describe. I also find wide CPs counter intuitive...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 2:04:35 GMT
The average racer aims toward the middle of a checkpoint not the very tippy edge...therefore your placement would force all the drivers not knowing the purpose of your placement into wildly off line paths that ruin the corners. To be fair, it's not off line paths if the road is wide enough to handle it. It's quite common in racing to have more then the 3 lines going closest to the corner, those are the lines you usually use when overtaking in a turn. Alot of races even accomodate for 3+ cars wide turns, it's self-explanatory that 2 of the cars must take a wider line then the ideal to make that work. The reason people aim for the middle of the checkpoint isn't that it's the most intuitive place to aim, but that 90% of races made so far have the checkpoints placed too far into the turn so it has become the norm of racing in GTA. That doesn't mean it's the best way, and the good things about norm is that they can change. If more races are made using a wider CP placement, the norm will be to adjust your car according to the road and not the CP location. Keep in mind that my way is actually more accurately following the Checkpoint Placement Guide that we set up a few months back. This for example, becomes less accurate the closer the checkpoint is to the curb on either side, as the checkpoints will point diagonal rather then symmetrical to the road direction. EDIT: Cuz05, again, the wide CP's become counter-intuitive simply because of current norms and standards used in races. I was thinking the same thing until I started placing them like this, you quickly get used to it though, and personally I find it much better to race with. I often now find when racing on tracks with tight CP's that the turns feel obscured by the corona and I lose visibility. I also notice a significant reduction in overall debris in my own races. It still gets out of hand sometimes, but atleast now those who knock it down have to turn around to get the checkpoints. I've also been recieving alot of positive feedback from people I've been playing with, who also are fed up with the amount of lightpoles and signs that usually litter a race. It's not non-excistent, and never will be, because not all streets are suited for a wide CP placement. But it's much, much better.
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Post by SPEEDSTER0595 on Jul 26, 2014 4:24:26 GMT
The average racer aims toward the middle of a checkpoint not the very tippy edge...therefore your placement would force all the drivers not knowing the purpose of your placement into wildly off line paths that ruin the corners. Average racer? I have not seen anyone "aim" for the middle of a checkpoint unless its on a straightaway, Turns are different, the only time someone would aim for the middle is if there are cars on the inside and outside of the player. Otherwise, many players try to cut corners thus hitting lamp posts, hence protecting them with tirestacks. The middle of the cp does not signify the best line, because all tracks are different. I second what Cuz05 said about awareness. Seeing an obstacle like a tire stack or barrel line makes players aware of the lamp posts instead of them blending in and being run over. Ive driven a more than a few races. Unprotected or lamp posts with no warning get run over. Protected ones or ones that have been lines with barrels tend to stay up.
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Post by Cuz05 on Jul 26, 2014 9:30:11 GMT
The thing is Fachuro, I don't have a hard and fast rule with CP placement at corners. What I do is place them according to the road into and out of the corner and the attitude of the car as it approaches. I find that placement can tell you a great deal about how you enter the corner without you even really thinking about it. Many times I've found it hard to get a nice line on a particular bend until the CP is just so. It's not something where you can go 'it should be here, here or here', that would only apply to clear 90 degree corner with an average speed of entry. Exactly the sort of corners I try to minimize in my races. It's more that you look directly where you aim to send the car as you drive the road and every tiny fraction the CP is off the line you're aiming at is another miniscule misdirection of the eye, whether you register it conciously or not. One of the key things in the guide for me is that the CPs should mirror the road naturally and work in tandem with it, so that you don't really notice the CPs at all, like a good referee... You're not going to alter the number of chevrons showing on a CP by these little differences and if the CP isn't pointing exactly down the path of the road then it could well be that you're not gonna be pointing your car that way either. After all, taking the racing line means that you are going diagonally at the corner.
I get what you're saying about getting used to it and I can see where you're coming from in theory but I don't see that the current trend of placement (as you see it) comes from an acceptance of less optimal placement. If you look at R*s tracks, their placement is generally wider and more on the apex than a lot of the best work Rummers have created, this suggests to me that the placement we were used to on pre-creator tracks was not ideal and has since been improved through practice and experience. Every creator I run with pays attention to the way people run their races and takes notes from other people tracks, so we get a consensus. It would only follow that a trend of poor positioning on corner placement would develop if all those creators were just lazily copying each other or not correcting placement where problems reoccurred but I know for sure that that isn't the case. We all test these races a great deal and move things around in tiny increments until it flows naturally for the vast majority.
To alter the way we see the track, to readjust a well accepted method of signalling turns for the sake of lampposts or corner cutting seems overkill for me. Particularly when we can place a few props around and more or less eradicate the problem.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 10:22:46 GMT
The thing is Fachuro, I don't have a hard and fast rule with CP placement at corners. What I do is place them according to the road into and out of the corner and the attitude of the car as it approaches. I find that placement can tell you a great deal about how you enter the corner without you even really thinking about it. Many times I've found it hard to get a nice line on a particular bend until the CP is just so. It's not something where you can go 'it should be here, here or here', that would only apply to clear 90 degree corner with an average speed of entry. Exactly the sort of corners I try to minimize in my races. It's more that you look directly where you aim to send the car as you drive the road and every tiny fraction the CP is off the line you're aiming at is another miniscule misdirection of the eye, whether you register it conciously or not. One of the key things in the guide for me is that the CPs should mirror the road naturally and work in tandem with it, so that you don't really notice the CPs at all, like a good referee... You're not going to alter the number of chevrons showing on a CP by these little differences and if the CP isn't pointing exactly down the path of the road then it could well be that you're not gonna be pointing your car that way either. After all, taking the racing line means that you are going diagonally at the corner. I get what you're saying about getting used to it and I can see where you're coming from in theory but I don't see that the current trend of placement (as you see it) comes from an acceptance of less optimal placement. If you look at R*s tracks, their placement is generally wider and more on the apex than a lot of the best work Rummers have created, this suggests to me that the placement we were used to on pre-creator tracks was not ideal and has since been improved through practice and experience. Every creator I run with pays attention to the way people run their races and takes notes from other people tracks, so we get a consensus. It would only follow that a trend of poor positioning on corner placement would develop if all those creators were just lazily copying each other or not correcting placement where problems reoccurred but I know for sure that that isn't the case. We all test these races a great deal and move things around in tiny increments until it flows naturally for the vast majority. To alter the way we see the track, to readjust a well accepted method of signalling turns for the sake of lampposts or corner cutting seems overkill for me. Particularly when we can place a few props around and more or less eradicate the problem. If you look at R*'s tracks they are also not at the apex of the turn, I would foremost suggest that as the reason. And it's not necessarily those checkpoints making their work worse either, you can't compare how optimal CP placements are based on 2 different tracks. The idea that placing CP's tight in the turn was born from our Approved Races threads, and thus very much influenced by how for example Luap, Dr Atomic, Guitarone and even I were placing checkpoints early on. I'm not saying one way or the other is right, but I'm saying that placing them wide is more in accordance with the guide, and also reduces the amount of debris coming down greatly. Note that was my main arguement here, and the discussion of whether one was better or worse only was brought up when my way was accused of being worse because everyone go through the center of the checkpoint. Which first of all isn't true as pointed out by Speedster, and second of all doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is doing the right thing. (Which again, I tried pointing out is also relying on the norm we set as creators) I don't have a hard and fast rule either, the checkpoints shouldn't be adjusted to the car approaching however. There are some rules that are true, and one of those is that the ideal placement is on the apex. Yes, sometimes you have to compromise, but it's not relying on the car but on the turn. There is no one answer on how to place a checkpoint in A turn, but there is one to how to place it in each individual turn. This is because the turns are unchangeable, unless you add a bunch of props to change how that particular turn works, the ideal placement will always be the same. The reason for this is that the way we approach a turn is individual, not based on the cars. I might slow down earlier, to easier maintain a higher constant speed through the turn and allow for better acceleration out. And you might be taking it at a higher speed, braking more at the turn to reach it earlier, there are millions of different ways to approach a turn meaning people will reach it at different speeds. That's kind of the idea behind a race, allowing individuality for the racers. So the placement should be constant. It should be where it makes the turn best possible for the racers, and in my opinion that includes wherever possible to reduce the amount of debris in the road. That's an opinion though, you choose to agree or disagree. However, let me leave you with this last little thought: For the first time racer, what do you think is the most destructive for the race? If we assume you and Luap to be correct, that it's not optimal and it causes the racer to not pick the ideal line at first. Do you think that will cause racers to lose the most time? Or... Do you think a lightpole across the road will cost more seconds?
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Post by Cuz05 on Jul 26, 2014 10:58:46 GMT
The idea that placing CP's tight in the turn was born from our Approved Races threads, and thus very much influenced by how for example Luap, Dr Atomic, Guitarone and even I were placing checkpoints early on. I don't have a hard and fast rule either, the checkpoints shouldn't be adjusted to the car approaching however. There are some rules that are true, and one of those is that the ideal placement is on the apex. Yes, sometimes you have to compromise, but it's not relying on the car but on the turn. Placement in the races we run on PS3 has nothing to do with the Xbox approved thread but is based on our own processes and experiences. That there is an independent consensus on this adds weight to it imo. I get where you're coming from again but placement is ALL about how a car approaches a turn. What a good placement will do is suggest how you line up for it, not just say 'this corner is here'. There's no variety of racing lines, there's a quickest one and that's it. There's a bunch of ways to go into it but the CP will give you the optimum one and be placed in such a way as it catches the rest of the options. You guide the driver through the line but you're not taking away their option to deviate from it. My main point is that it's a homogeneous thing, car, road and CP flowing naturally together so you simply drive through it without feeling anything is out of place. Where the CP goes comes directly from that relationship, not from simply looking at the road. As for debris, like I've said, propping the posts removes that almost entirely so it's disregardable as an argument in CP placement. If you're moving CPs around because of obstacles and such then it would follow that you're moving away from ideal placement as far as the road goes.
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Post by LuapYllier on Jul 27, 2014 12:06:35 GMT
The average racer aims toward the middle of a checkpoint not the very tippy edge...therefore your placement would force all the drivers not knowing the purpose of your placement into wildly off line paths that ruin the corners. To be fair, it's not off line paths if the road is wide enough to handle it. It's quite common in racing to have more then the 3 lines going closest to the corner, those are the lines you usually use when overtaking in a turn. Alot of races even accomodate for 3+ cars wide turns, it's self-explanatory that 2 of the cars must take a wider line then the ideal to make that work. The reason people aim for the middle of the checkpoint isn't that it's the most intuitive place to aim, but that 90% of races made so far have the checkpoints placed too far into the turn so it has become the norm of racing in GTA. That doesn't mean it's the best way, and the good things about norm is that they can change. If more races are made using a wider CP placement, the norm will be to adjust your car according to the road and not the CP location. Keep in mind that my way is actually more accurately following the Checkpoint Placement Guide that we set up a few months back. This for example, becomes less accurate the closer the checkpoint is to the curb on either side, as the checkpoints will point diagonal rather then symmetrical to the road direction. EDIT: Cuz05, again, the wide CP's become counter-intuitive simply because of current norms and standards used in races. I was thinking the same thing until I started placing them like this, you quickly get used to it though, and personally I find it much better to race with. I often now find when racing on tracks with tight CP's that the turns feel obscured by the corona and I lose visibility. I also notice a significant reduction in overall debris in my own races. It still gets out of hand sometimes, but atleast now those who knock it down have to turn around to get the checkpoints. I've also been recieving alot of positive feedback from people I've been playing with, who also are fed up with the amount of lightpoles and signs that usually litter a race. It's not non-excistent, and never will be, because not all streets are suited for a wide CP placement. But it's much, much better. With all due respect Fachuro, I highlighted the one important part of your argument. There is only one ideal line for a turn all others are slightly disadvantaged and would only be taken for a reason like overtaking. If you are putting your checkpoints in such a way that the ideal line is way out on the edge of the corona you are making the drivers uncomfortable. Furthermore this fact has been one of the founding guidelines for both the "approved" threads since January and now suddenly because you yourself have gotten tired of people laying lampposts in front of you, you want to go and change the rules and try to justify your decision with arguments about lines. Everyone I have raced with agrees that some of your new checkpoint placements are too wide and just feel wrong. FACT.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 12:26:43 GMT
I gotta agree with luap - some checkpoints placement on your races Ozzy are just wrong in my opinion. I always have to slow down on some turns because I'm taking a wider line and I cant adjust myself on the next turn.
Wider checkpoints doesnt work for me - ok you might avoid some props and stuff but the ideal line gets screwed
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 19:59:04 GMT
You need to re-read my argument, I never said that I was necessarily right. I was pointing out that being stuck in a paradigm isn't necessarily right, and that is important that we challenge that paradigm properly, and take an empirical approach. I furthermore disagree that the checkpoints should at any cost be pointing out the ideal line for the driver. The facts are that the checkpoints can be hit from far out on the edge, so the ideal line will always be far out on the edge regardless of how much you want it in the middle. If you move the checkpoint closer to the curb, you are simultaneously moving the ideal line for the race because the checkpoint CAN be reached from a new and different spot, and often this will be advantageous.
So whilst I fully respect your arguments agains't my style (A respect I don't feel is mutual here, which is unhealthy for any discussion/debate), and I understand the reasoning behind them, I choose a standpoint where I disagree with it necessarily being true and I choose to challenge the paradigm. Which as mentioned, I have received positive responses on, not only your responses which obviously are negative.
I'm not saying this means one or the other is true, that there is a debate that needs to be addressed properly. And that debate also regards something as basic as the purpose of a checkpoint, and how much of the work in choosing a racing line that checkpoint should actually be doing for you, and how much of the responsibility should be on the driver.
And to clarify, the entire concept of a paradigm is to make an assumption a truth without fully allowing that assumption to be challenged empirically, which is exactly what has happened here. Any sort of debate on the subject, or deviancy from the paradigm is automatically attacked based on a "feeling" or a "hunch" that could very well just be a result of the existing paradigm, allowing it to go unchallenged forever. Thus it will never be proved or disproved.
Now it also goes to say here that I've often heard yourself argue on tracks that a racing line should not be forced by a checkpoint, and that a checkpoint should not be obstructing drivers. I have presented you with arguments why this directly contradicts the arguments you are using agains't my checkpoint placement, and rather then repeating your previous arguments I would appreciate it if you would rather spend your effort defending why your statements are not contradictions. I've also lately made a few comments to you on a few of your races regarding some checkpoint placements that you have vigorously defended, whilst the exact same arguments you use are the ones you do not accept from people defending their checkpoint placements in your approved races thread. (I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with the arguments you use agains't them)
I'll end my post with pointing out that we're of course all friends here, and the reason/purpose of this debate is not to create hostility in any way, so whilst some arguments might seem harsh it's important to keep in mind that they are NOT personal attacks or intended to offend in any way, I am simply attempting to raise questions to provoke thought which should be healthy. And I sincerely hope that nothing said here will be perceived in any other way.
And I hope we all can agree on one thing, the ideal line is the line which allows the race to be completed with the fastest possible lap, and in contact racing that is also a variable which is affected by the lines taken by other cars in the race. And that if the fastest laps are completed by driving on sidewalks or inbetween R* props, then that is also necessarily the ideal line regardless of where you're hitting the checkpoint.
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Post by Cuz05 on Jul 27, 2014 20:29:30 GMT
I'm all for challenging existing paradigms but I'm not a big fan of over complicating things...
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Post by LuapYllier on Jul 28, 2014 0:23:25 GMT
Fachuro, first, yes we are friends. If I sound like I am attacking you I need to correct myself. I am not a very social capable person. a fact which makes itself known quite often. You are in fact correct in everything you have said in your last post. In fact so correct that the thought you have provoked in me is what good is my approved thread really doing but to reinforce a paradigm that in fact could be false. We have instilled into the masses in the forum that there is a right way when in fact maybe there isn't...maybe it's just my way.
The only defense that I have at the moment is that I don't believe that the checkpoints should have to be there at all. I imagine running the race in the fastest possible line around the obstacles. The obstacles are the physical objects placed in the map by Rockstar and the ones added by the creator. The purpose of the checkpoints are to tell the driver which way to turn and where. In my mind that is the only purpose. They should not themselves be limiting factors...though I can concede that in some cases they must be for instance in an open desert type turn they simply must limit the shortcut because there just isn't any obstacle preventing huge shortcutting.
Note: Without standards there is chaos. Chaos results in a lot of the garbage tracks that can be found. Developing a standard out of chaos is a challenge in itself and even if said standards may not be absolutely perfect, if they are found by consensus to be acceptable it must be better than chaos.
Just like to point out that every judge in the approved thread has negatively commented on races that were submitted with checkpoints placed wide in the turn as you are suggesting...including yourself. Now you have me wondering if this is solely because I decided in the beginning that that is where they shouldn't be and that this whole approved notion of checkpoints is just a snowball that started from a rock I pushed off a hill in January.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 8:17:58 GMT
Fachuro, first, yes we are friends. If I sound like I am attacking you I need to correct myself. I am not a very social capable person. a fact which makes itself known quite often. You are in fact correct in everything you have said in your last post. In fact so correct that the thought you have provoked in me is what good is my approved thread really doing but to reinforce a paradigm that in fact could be false. We have instilled into the masses in the forum that there is a right way when in fact maybe there isn't...maybe it's just my way. I only read this so far, early in the morning but felt I should reply to it immediately and then I will reply to the rest later ;-) While you do sound like that from time to time, I do think I know you by now and I'm not really worried when you sound like that as I know most often you are just like me, being frank and honest ;-) I was in fact trying to make sure that I myself didn't appear hostile And I'm glad to hear that we all agree on the value of challenging the paradigms, and that we're sort of working towards a common goal here :-) I'm sure whatever comes out of this discussion will benefit Red Rum and ART greatly, regardless of who turns out to be wrong or right ;-) My suspicion however is that we both will be wrong and we both will be right, as the truth usually is somewhere inbetween I'll save the discussion for later in the day thought ;-)
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Post by nittydon on Jul 28, 2014 11:20:32 GMT
Agree with the above, for months I built races sticking to a tried and tested (and proven) CP placement method, only now I am starting to realise every CP needs its own set of rules which sometimes in my experience go against the CP placement guide.
However the best soundboard for me to test anything new out is with the PS3 RRR guys, always get good honest feedback so if they tell me something new just don't work then I always listen, would be completely wrong to ignore my biggest customer base, no ?
Also who is ART ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 11:42:40 GMT
Agree with the above, for months I built races sticking to a tried and tested (and proven) CP placement method, only now I am starting to realise every CP needs its own set of rules which sometimes in my experience go against the CP placement guide. However the best soundboard for me to test anything new out is with the PS3 RRR guys, always get good honest feedback so if they tell me something new just don't work then I always listen, would be completely wrong to ignore my biggest customer base, no ? Also who is ART ? Approved Races Thread (ART)
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Post by nittydon on Jul 28, 2014 11:48:19 GMT
Lol I thought it was another crew of some sort ....
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Post by Cuz05 on Jul 28, 2014 12:04:44 GMT
I thought you meant actual art, lmao! After all, is not everything in life ART? As concious, self aware beings, does it not fall upon us, out of all Gods creatures, to conjure beauty from the practicalities of our existence?!!? When we piss in the snow, do we not write our own names? Ahem. Anyway, the part in the CP guide that I thought was most important is the orange, bolded intro... That's about art too. All hail ART!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 12:11:53 GMT
But then again, is the content of the ART art too? ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 16:53:29 GMT
For anyone more interested in my style here, I just thought I'd share a recent discovery I made which makes it alot easier to place the CP's correctly, and on the apex like this. The distance from where you can hit the checkpoint outside the corona, is almost exactly the size of the red ring that shows when you run out of checkpoints. So, if you place your spares in a random location whilst finetuning, you can use it to measure the distance out from the curb, or wherever you want it possible to be hit from to the corona. In addition to this, the cross in the middle can serve as a tool to better find the diagonal of the apex pointing out from the curve, so the checkpoint is simply placed further out on the apex. (The center of the curve)
Hopefully some people will find this useful in their creations :-)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 17:03:40 GMT
Sizewise all cars operate with the same distance, whilst motorcycles will be about the width of 1-2 wheels shorter, so a car can hit the checkpoints ever so slightly further out.
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